Kim Samuel: Leading with Belonging

Ramia: Welcome everyone to another episode of Women in Family Business. I am absolutely delighted to welcome our guest today, Kim Samwell. Kim, welcome to the show,

Kim: I am absolutely delighted to be here. Thank you very much.

Ramia: Kim. I’m so excited, we are gonna be diving into your expertise around social isolation, belonging, and we’re going to flavor it with a little bit of family enterprise legacy, which is your background as well. It feels like the right time in dare I say, history to be talking about these subjects in more depth. So I’m really excited about, about this, uh, conversation with you. It would be wonderful for us, Kim, to sort of like understand where your passion for the topic of belonging and sort of like fighting social isolation even came from to begin with. Because I know that there’s a personal moment in your life that kind of led you to, to that moment. If you wouldn’t mind sharing that with us.

Kim: Of course, I, uh, will take you back to 1997 and at the very beginning of that year, my, my father, my late father, Ernie Samuel, had, uh, a severe brain injury, out of the blue, at least as far as any of us know. And he was then in a coma for three months. It’s important to note that that was around the time when MRIs were still quite new and, he, I believe, was saved more than once by an MRI detecting that had gone really wrong inside his head. When he woke up and there was no guarantee that he would three months after the being in a coma, it was a miracle for us that we had him back. We also knew, and he knew that he had acquired a lot of disabilities, physical disabilities, cognitive disabilities and so on. But I think you’ll know what I mean when I say he was still him. And we knew that. Well, one of the first things that was required was to get him into rehabilitation. The sooner the better for anyone. And we hit a roadblock. The roadblock was that my dad had just turned 65. We have insurance, medical insurance, health insurance, which I recognize that millions of people do not have. We thought that we would be covered with that and we weren’t. The insurance company came back and said, oh, no, no. He’s in his sundown years, meaning 65. Therefore, there is no provision for rehabilitation. So I have to say, even telling you about this now I can feel what a shock it was to hear that then. And there was, there was nothing that we could do or appeal or do anything about this or have doctors come in and talk about the potential for recovery, or I should say recovery to the greatest potential. So we, as a family were, well, we were blessed mostly ’cause we had him back, but also we could afford to get him to a top place for rehabilitation.

We’re from Canada as I think you know. But the best place that we heard about and knew about was in Chicago. And so my dad got to go to rehabilitation and that went very, very well. But I also became aware for the first time of what ageism is, he was not going to be given any hope of rehabilitation. He was going to be sent to a nursing home where he would get some hand stimulation or something each day. I’m not a big fan of institutionalization. I realize that’s another topic. So I just saw it as this is an issue of justice and does everyone know that this can happen to everybody? And so that was the first point. By the way, things are better now. Those decisions can’t be made quite so easily. But I’m still a strong advocate for things that we find that people are not being treated equally, or even having insurance or a government estate that will help to cover a lot of this. We know it’s still really bad in most places. So that was the first point was really when my father went back home to Canada, after the rehabilitation. And he now was a person with a lot of disabilities and he was using a wheelchair and he had, physical disabilities. He was left-handed. It was his left hand that didn’t really work. And he cared a lot of sadness. Almost the better he got the sadder he was because he was more aware of what he had lost. So there we are home. And this is when I got to become so aware of the way people are made, less than, treated as, less than… the end of that sentence is less than human because of a number of things. And in this case, it was disabilities. Even people who were his friends, really his friends, they didn’t know what to do because we don’t teach people what to do. And so if you don’t know what to do, sometimes you just back away. What to do. It’s pretty simple. Just be yourself. Just be yourself. Don’t be scared. But then there were a lot of people that, that we encountered and, and even trying to get into, into buildings that were supposed to have, um, universal design that would be accessible to all. And they’re not. And, I got to see most of all. with disability and in a way never leaving it. I co keep coming back to people with disabilities and older people and a lot of other layers on top of that.

But I thought, well, it’s not because my dad has disabilities that he’s being treated this way. It’s because of the way disabilities are being perceived in society. As that somehow less of all different kinds. Then I thought about poverty in its many different forms. Only one of which is, is income poverty. Which is what a lot of my career until then had been on. And I thought, gosh, people are put down or treated as the other, not because of the poverty they are experiencing. It’s because of the way they are treated, of the poverty. Then we can go into most anything else, we can go into L-G-B-Q-I-T people, we could go into just being a woman. We could go into, uh, what happens in the workplace. We could go into forced migrants, asylum seekers.

We could go anywhere and, and, and it’s something honestly that I see myself working on until my last breath or as close to it as I can come because this is my passion.

So those experiences both related to my father, and I guess when my mother too… my parents got married young and they had now been married about 45 years, both in their sixties. And my mom was now defined as the primary caregiver. And I learned that primary caregivers didn’t get much respect either. And that was a big deal for me, the family. What about the family? This isn’t just a family in a family business. This is every family. And then time went along and my father passed on in 2000. He had four more years and I should say we had him for four more years and the grandchildren had him for four more years. But I wish he was still around. He would, he said he always wanted to be,  “I’m going to be a grand old guy in my nineties.” I love that. But he didn’t get to be that. And then moving around the world a bit and moving to about 2002. I, uh, was introduced to Nelson Mandela. Completely different context.

And even to just meet him was an incredible honour. But I also got to have a bit of a conversation and I asked him about isolation. And I asked if he had been, uh, isolated. Did he feel isolated? Of course, he would know all about that from Robin being at Robin Island, whereas, you know, he spent 19 years out of a total of 26 years incarcerated, and Robin Island was the worst conditions. And he said, no, no, I’ve never been isolated. And I recovered as quick as I could thinking things were going so well and now like what’s happened, but think of a new question. And I said, not even in Robin Island? And he said, no, because in Robin Island we were all brothers working together with a common purpose. I was never alone. He then went on to say that he had seen isolation in a child, in a village Africa with no love and food and housing and care, and on and on. And he said, “I’ve seen isolation and it is very bad.” And putting those two statements together, that was kind of a moment. It wasn’t a moment of, wow, I need to make a speech about this. It was not like that. It was the fact that he. been in the harshest conditions, cut off for in, in a big way, physically from the world, yet he knew that he was connected and that there was a purpose. And so it just quietly hit me thinking, oh, well, okay, so this is what I’m gonna be working on for the rest of my life. It, it, it was like that. And so now what’s for dinner? I mean, it was really just like that. Yeah.

Ramia: it’s wonderful to have that clarity, I think, to know where our true motivation lies. Why we do what we do. But you know, I think it’s particularly interesting because you do come from a family enterprise context and background, and I think this whole conversation around belonging, and we’re gonna dive a little bit more deeply into how exactly you define that in a moment, but just the first thing that I thought when I learned about what you’re doing, Kim, was I thought is how much we take belonging for granted in a family business context, because it almost feels like telling someone that they feel isolated or lonely when they have a place where literally the name is on the door. You know what I mean? Like you have family members around you all the time. I mean we know it can be toxic, but it feels like that setting should be the opposite of, you know, loneliness and isolation. So I found that really interesting sort of that juxtaposition between like, you know, you focusing on that, but coming from a very successful family enterprise legacy at the same time. So, I mean, I’d love to explore this with you, like, do you think we take a sense of belonging too much for granted in like something like a family legacy, family enterprise space, or like, is it the same like with Nelson Mandela where we assumed he was isolated when he was actually not? What? What do you think?

Kim: I would say yes, yes to the question. Maybe it’s not as much it for granted as, it is feeling really disappointed when it isn’t just there. And I can speak, I can speak from my, my own, uh, family business experience, which I don’t get asked about very often because this, as I shared, my work is about belonging in other places as well. So I really appreciate, I really appreciate the questions. I’m part of a family business that was founded in 1855 and a country Canada that was founded in 1867. So that’s, uh, that’s quite old. I’m the fifth generation. my daughter and her cousins are the sixth and my daughter’s two children are the seventh, and I wanna say that family business, or not, it’s really amazing to see the next generations. And when I think about legacy. really think about what do I want to leave behind for my grandchildren? Now it’s like feel I’m in a, I’m in a wonderful place to, to think that way, but also coming back to belonging. I, I grew up and, and I have my sister, our sister passed on as well. There were, there were three of us. Now it’s me and my brother Mark, is that there was never a time, I don’t ever remember a time not knowing that we had a family business that we were really proud of, and that even as little kids that like this was part of our family. There were no words like legacy or no words of responsibility. It was just, wow, you know, this, this is, this is really important to our family. And my, my, my dad gets up really early and even when there’s a snow storm and no one else turns up, he’ll be driving into the company. And these kinds of things that still inspire me today. Belonging wasn’t really something that was articulated. And even now I see the word everywhere, but I think it’s important that we consider what do we mean by belonging? And so for me, belonging only works if everybody belongs. And, in the case of a family business, as my, my dad used to say. He would probably still be saying it, just that he’s not here. However many people are at the business, each one of those represents a family in a family business. And I’ve written about, about belonging and research about belonging and I’ve kind of live belonging. And on the other side, isolation and loneliness and deprivations and human rights and, and it all comes in together.

For a long time, it was only, I only, but really in the last 20, 25 years, which sounds like a really long time, I realize this, but I really thought about my own belonging anywhere. It was… Sometimes that happens like that. You find your passion. But you don’t see it as it, there’s also something here for you to learn most important thing for you. And then you can be more effective. And so when I thought about this and also knowing that we were gonna talk today, and that we’d be talking about, about the business, I thought what’s my own belonging story? And my own belonging story is the belonging to my family. And that that includes my mom. You know, that includes.. our family was really close and that includes who we are, but our identity was also, wow, I’m in the fifth generation of a family business and this is really cool. And then when you lose a part of that, and in my case it was, I mean, losing my father. You feel like a little, I wasn’t a little girl. I wasn’t, and then it’s kind of like a whole part is gone because he lived the business. Does that make sense? That was his passion, he always referred to himself as a small businessman. Our company was a bit bigger when he, through his time than it was when he got involved. It wasn’t really a small business, but what he was telling us is, I’m an entrepreneur. He would say, you know, I love building things. I’m a builder of things. And even after the brain injury that I mentioned, he went on for four more years. He was the first to say, for God’s sake. Doctors need to tell me what I can’t do, what I cannot do, ’cause I don’t wanna hurt my business. But his moral, and he still did, still did a lot, but there were certain things that he wasn’t doing, cognitive things. He was still him, but some of the, some of the details and, and lining them up and that, you know, he got a lot more help, which was good. But he was still the moral authority. There was a much bigger appetite to grow the business. Remember, this is a, a small businessman, he’s an entrepreneur. He would always say, you know, he doesn’t, doesn’t have time for that highfalutin stuff. I’m building a business and… He was a doer. So when he was gone, which was, 2000. He was gone in 2000. That’s the year that he, that he passed. It was for me, gosh, what, what am I in this business? I’d, I’d also had an, I didn’t set my sights on working in the business. I should point that out. And, I loved being part of it. And I did some different jobs over the years, including environment, health and safety, and I love that. But it was also, I know this is gonna sound corny, but I wanna say it, it was also getting to work with my dad. And then I had you say, my, my calling was taking me to different places and different parts of the world. And, you know, you get to a certain point and look back and say, oh, yes, I was on a path. No, that path has led me here today. But in the moment you can sometimes feel like the eldest child who can’t make up her mind what she wants to do. But I always felt supported. But the belonging thing has been a very big issue for me within the family business, in the last while. And so much so that I’m very passionate about family businesses, especially having beenpart of one. So I’m also hoping that I can be of some use to other family businesses who are going through this within the family, the, the, shall we say, the ownership class. ’cause I don’t like the word shareholders so much. And some people will be, wanna be more in the business, others not, but how do you do that? But also what does it mean to people that everyone in their own way is part of a family business and part of a does this mean to people in a business? And as you alluded to, uh, geopolitical times – uncertainty doesn’t, doesn’t even start, does it/

Ramia: No, no. I’m, I’m looking for a word. We might just wanna invent one on this podcast so that people can use it. like in the future. Like, Let’s, just, let’s brainstorm that in post.

Kim: Okay. Okay. Yeah. So the belonging just to, I. I construct belonging and see belonging as a, a birthright we all share by simple virtue of the fact that we are born. And that can sound sort of like, I still get a, it’s usually this shoulder. I don’t know why kind of, it isn’t that nice. You care about people. Well, as it turns out, I do care about people. But what I’m talking about is what happens when we kind of forget about belonging. And, and that’s my word. That’s my word. There could be another word, certainly another languages there will be many, many other words. But it’s, it’s the fact that if you don’t have the, gosh, the chance to get a birth certificate, go to school, to have healthcare, to have all these basic rights, I put them all into belonging. Then, it’s pretty hard to have a community, a society, a place that you might even, your home, that you feel this strong sense of this is tied up in me. I put it into our connection to people, to each other, which is mostly what most people talk about. But then a connection to place, which I keep coming back to nature, can also be workplace. It’s very important as workplaces are now often no place. And then to power big one here to what’s happening to our power structures and a question I’ve been asking, maybe I can try this here. I was thinking about, so these hands are a mountain right now. This mountain whether or not it’s designated as a sacred mountain, it’s a mountain. And I’ve been looking at what’s at the top of the mountain. It’s called the summit by the way, you may know that I didn’t know that peaks and summits are different. And I didn’t know I was gonna share this, but it’s interesting. At the summit of a mountain, nobody lives at the summit. No one can stay at the summit. You climb to the top of the mountain and, you go to back down? Hopefully, yeah, you have to, you can’t stay there. And then I look at the, the, the symbolism of mountains and whether or not, uh, from a context of faith, although. Although, I think of it that way, it’s a space. It’s we’re having an earth meet and in mythology it’s, where heaven and earth meet. The thing is, if you make it to the top of Mount Everest, you cannot stay at the summit. And I look at leadership today and I see, this is a question mark, but let’s put the question mark out. Do too many leaders try to stay at the summit? So the last, I wanna come back to that, the last of the piece, people place power and purpose,

Ramia: yeah.

Kim: and purpose resonates so much. Being part of a family business and knowing that so many of my ancestors that this was, this wasn’t just the, it was the family in the business, but then I also would like to state that legacy’s a big one because I don’t believe that, that you have to stay in the family business or even a family business unless it’s not serving and it has to be serving society in some way. I do. But we can do so much more with family businesses, I think, because we’re not only there to say, this could, this could happen in a family business, but I’m hoping that if it’s a family business, someone family or non-family actually could be at the helm of that. But I feel somehow the family’s all around and all the businesses. And today I think about family business a lot. I think about oligarchs a lot. I think about the world? Only that, that’s why I’ve been studying mountains over the last week as to you can’t stay there and therefore people, place, power, purpose. It has to be shared. You still need an order of things. People need to know their roles, but it goes back to belonging. And everyone in a, I’m going to say in an enterprise of any kind, they are equally important. They’re equally important.

Ramia: So you are talking about the, the, the mountains. Now I’m going to call how you just described your work as an iceberg because we just got to see the tip of it right now, because I think at this point in the podcast, it’s important to understand why I’m gonna be asking the next question because everything that you’ve just said leads me to this almost call to action that I think this kind of conversation should be. So first of all, you created a center for belonging, and you created the, uh, the Samuel Center for Social Connectedness, actually, where you are the Chief Belonging Officer, which I love as a title

Kim: I should tell you,

Ramia: You got demoted?

Kim: it’s now, yeah, I don’t mind. By the way, I’m fine with demoting myself because the main point is that in a community, everyone shows up with their gifts. But, uh, the name has been changed to the Belonging Forum because Yeah. And, and my new title, in case you wanted to know, I thought I can’t do Chief Belonging Officer of the Belonging Forum. So I am now founder and chief architect and recently hired a CEO, who is phenomenal. And she’s, her name is Laura Price. She’s been in the role for, uh, well since January. And I am continuing to bring the vision and set things out, but I also started a belonging research lab at, at Oxford, where I spend a bit of time and I’m more and more seeing my role. My role is to just hold this space actively every day, and, and keep bringing in people to this space who want to come, uh, with little or no barrier to entry. And so for my part, I’m hoping to be starting an accelerated PhD program. And I’m starting a new book. And so I just want you to know it comes back to family business. By the way, my mother was a brilliant woman and my sister, who’s no longer with us and my brother who is, but I’m giving you all the business stuff, came from my dad. And my dad would say back in the day, you know, there was a switchboard when you go into the, into the company. And he said, you know who the most important person is? Her name was Joyce. It’s Joyce. Joyce is the first person that talks to customers, talks to them every single day. That’s the most important person. And so I, you know, and if the restrooms, bathrooms aren’t, he would do his own sort of check. And if those aren’t clean in the plant, then there’s a lot of other things that are going wrong. And so when I’m telling you what I’m doing, ’cause I’m so excited about it, but also this is a little bit like a family business where you’re not going for the summit ’cause there is no summit. you’re, what you’re really doing is going for the circle. And everyone gets to show up there and be supportive of one another. Yeah.

Ramia: I love that. I love that imagery. Actually, that’s a very positive way of, of looking at it. I’m quite fond of the word belonging because I think it has a kindness to it that I think we can all sense and feel as a need in us. But I also think that it almost gets very often confused as a nice to have, as a soft skill. If, if that makes any sense. And it’s so interesting how you described the importance of this or this conversation within the family enterprise because I’m thinking particularly in the boardroom, when I hear you talk, I’m like, gosh, that’s a hard skill that you should learn before entering the boardroom. Like, this is not something that you should just assume is going to be there, but this is something that you need to learn how to cultivate. So I’m wondering how you see this sort of like how frameworks come into this. Like, you know how people can actually intentionally say like, well, we don’t have that. Whether we’re a family enterprise or not, or any kind of other organization or group of people intending to, to do something together, can it be fostered? And if yes, what are the things we need to do as individuals?

Kim: Yeah, I, uh, I think it, I think it starts, if I could start with, is not a nice to have, and feel too, just because something sounds that there’s a softness to it. I love that there’s a softness And at the same time, when we look at the harshness of our, our world today, that lacks belonging so many people. And isolation, yes. Loneliness, yes. But also agency and choice and the systems that govern us to the point where we’re even so, questioning the systems that govern us, us, or what is, what is truth and what is not coming at at us. It’s really confusing. So would say the first is to, we, we can come up with other words that I, I love kindness. Kindness is all of them. They, they are in their own domain. Whether, whether it’s a, a domain of faith or maybe just about faith in each other. And at the same time, I believe, and underlying it is how do we affect and make better policies? Democratically representing people whose voices have had direct input into the dialogues. So then it becomes really important. Maybe we could look at what the, the costs are of not honoring belonging. Belonging isn’t really in the vocab, I believe it’s in, it’s kind of, it is kind of in, uh oh, it’s in, in everywhere down the hill from my house in Toronto is a cafe called the Belong Cafe.

I mean, belonging. No, but I mean belonging is everywhere. Uh, and you belong here, you see? But, but I said, well, so what does that mean? Does that mean anyone could come here? Does that mean if we invite a new member on a board because we, we really, you know, wanted someone from this sector or this gender or this, this, and should, we should want everyone from all gender sectors, perspectives, especially if I could say more people with disabilities on boards. with that, with that knowledge, then you’ve got the person, I’m giving you a board table. It could be any table. And that person comes in and they take their seat at the table and uh, and they’re kind of heard, but there’s no pickup. They don’t belong. And we have to really look at that. And I think that’s where DEI, which has had its, has had its moment but I’m still not sure that as all these DEI programs are canceled for different reasons that the good stuff, I hope the good stuff of that doesn’t go away because it lost political favor at a certain point in time. Because underneath this, with belonging, it’s all about the relationships. So something could be in a business, look exactly right in the policy written down. Exactly right. And there’s even recourse if your, the practices and policies that your organization has told you and you’ve read, and you’ve signed it, and you, and this is what they can expect from you. If that is not really felt and experienced, not just felt and lived by the individual who is, we’re even with the greatest job in the world, we’re all way more than our work. Then those things can be used as power tools for different outcomes. And so that’s something I’m really keen about. And, when I look at the, another part of your question, if I can just put in a new term, which is not belonging. You can choose not to belong. You can choose not to conform you. We have to also think about everything is relational. So what I do, I do for as an individual, ’cause human rights are all individuals. But everyone else is an individual. So we can’t just run reckless over lives. And I feel that there’s so many more, uh, bad indicators including young people and mental health. And I could, is that there’s fabric is being torn away. So we can’t, we can’t choose to deny someone else their belonging.

Ramia: the first thing that came to mind when you started answering the last question for me was like, you know how often belonging is taken away as a form of punishment to coerce people into doing what they don’t wanna do. That’s why I love the fact that you’re saying not belonging is an option as well. You know, and that not belonging does not have to result in loneliness necessarily. It’s not the same thing.

Kim: Not belonging can result in somebody’s connection to people, place, power, purpose, and knowing who they are.  I think what we’re talking about is diversity, and I feel lately that we, we need to, uh, need to all. Continue as loud as we can or rally and cry around diversity. And when you feel like you don’t belong, in one way we know it’s a need, people will go and find it somewhere else. So I think it’s important that we, that we bring in what used to sound soft and was maybe never soft understanding and listening and reciprocity. And if we, if we are not aware of those or we kind of forget those, then I believe the consequences are as bad as they can possibly be.

Ramia: So you’ve seen the landscape of how people. Are [00:43:00] supposedly more connected, changed so much through technology, and I wanted to talk to you about this as well, right?

Like, so the fact that throughout the time that you’ve been doing this work or like you’ve gone into this work and sort of like created this thought leadership and this sort of research, there was the emergence of the smartphone, social media, like people forget that all happened in the last 25 years, right? Can you talk to me a little bit through. How social media and phenomenons, like just generally the internet, I would say, have influenced the definition of belonging and where that leaves this discussion or where this discussion is going to lead this discussion?

Kim: I was asked recently technology in a way, as if are you for against it or against it? Because, because of talking about the, uh, of the technologies that you mentioned, and of course I’m for technology, uh, I’m also for responsible use of technology. And I’m also very much for evidenced based scientific research that continues to show real risk and real damage, especially to younger people, to young people. There’s a center as a, as a maybe a point of interest at, uh, Harvard University called the Digital Digital Wellness Lab, headed by a psychiatrist and maybe the kindest, most empathic man called Dr. Michael Rich. And they research and also treat a lot of people around 14 years old who, who have become so reliant on some of these forms of media and, and to, I think this is really scary to, ai. Chat boxes, helping a young person through the decision and acting on the decision to take their own lives. Could you ever imagine such a thing that could, that could happen? And, and so I think about, there’s a lot of really gooduses for the, the kind of technologies. There’s affinity groups, there’s people that communicate that couldn’t communicate otherwise. There’s also a lot of people who have no access to a smartphone. And at the same time, I think about what else, what else could we be doing when we’re not sitting at a computer screen? Maybe for kids, maybe we could get them out playing a bit more. Maybe we could get them into reading more. And, and I don’t mean to sound like I’m on a soapbox and I probably do, it’s just, there needs to be a balance. And we can’t look at one issue, um, separate from another issue. And I, I also feel that we’re in a bit of an age of, of, uh, limitless possibilities that are actually very limiting in terms of our longevity on this planet or our way of life. And of course, I’m especially talking about global warming. And we see this everywhere. So at the same time as there’s, when I say limitless, we can probably do just about anything. We’re human beings. And yet the more that it seems that these various technologies come in and they can’t, you can’t train them to have whereas, I love your idea so I’m going back to it, for people, future board members in a family enterprise who are family members and those who aren’t. And in any enterprise, yes, we can train about belonging. I think we all know what it feels like, and there are systems and there’s ways that this can be done in in all environments, but in, in a corporate environments. And I think that, I think that, uh. I think that that’s important and maybe not, and not being utilized  It’s all about getting, you know, getting a dialogue. And I think some, sometimes people have an even bigger sense of disbelief. If something is so natural, let’s, let’s start doing this. As opposed to there’s a new machine and it’s never done this whatever it’s gonna give us. I mean, you know, it’ll, it’ll, it’ll prepare the whole, the whole thing that you want and, and isn’t that great. And the shock of the new seems to outweigh what we know works, which is building community step by step and nurturing them.

Ramia: You know, and this is actually what it comes back to, isn’t it? Because another word that you’re very focused on with your work is the word connection. I remember all this technology being touted as this will make you more connected. Stay connected, be connected, connect. I remember this like, you know, when the smartphone, when the mobile phones came out and the smartphone came, when, when home internet started, it was all about being connected. But then I think very soon the question came connected to what, what exactly? And it’s interesting what you just said before, we’re capable of almost anything, and yet it’s easier to choose the destruction, I guess, in a weird way than seeking the connection. And I wonder what that is, Kim, because I was just saying, you know, when you said that like, you know, if we could train board members and stuff like that, and suddenly I thought to myself, like, I thought about various board members. As you said that I thought to myself like, you know, I think some of those people would have very strong reactions to that in that they would feel it would make them very vulnerable to even just approach a topic like that. Do you have that stigma to contend with when you speak about this? Like do people feel it touches a very private feeling or part of them? Like or, or are you able to normalize it for people as something that obviously is very inherent to all of us?

Kim: I first would like to say that I don’t think it’s as much that choose, you know, choose not to connect or choose not to… I, I think it’s that they don’t choose at all. And if you don’t you’re gonna get a reaction. And I also… Uh, I, maybe we need to invent another term. I don’t know what the term for this is, but when people feel like they made a choice, but there was no choice. And in terms of the, uh, how do people react? Well, we know everyone is unique. Um, so I think that the, the way it always is, and I teach, I love, you know, I teach, I love teaching, is that this does open up a lot for people personally, whether they, they ever need to acknowledge it or not. And so you just have to be aware that things can bring up other things, our own stories. We’re all stories. uh, I don. I, I don’t want to turn anything into faux therapy or I’m not trained anyway for that. So you have to kind of know how to guide dialogue and a conversation. But you know what, those dialogues and conversations, they don’t happen unless people feel like they’re in a safe space. And that safe space is to me where things really thrive. And, and so my first thing is to create, you know, create this space a safe space intentionally. But I wanna add to that. There’s a lot of theory here. There’s a lot of work that I think has been done that is related to belonging, is just called something else. Does that make sense?

Ramia: Yeah. absolutely.

Kim: A lot of people are doing this work in lot of different fields, including in business. And I would say it’s a real strength in family businesses too, to make sure people know that’s what you’re, that’s what you’re doing. That’s what you’re not. Because if you know that’s what you’re doing, then you’re aware and it kind of empowers you even within your own… maybe you’re in a group with three people in an organization that has 3 million. It can be, um, but it, but this is, it’s not top down, it’s not bottom up. It’s, again, I start from the center, and the more that, you know, that can happen. But there is a lot, believe it or not, to teach. And my teaching, it’s about sharing knowledge and getting people to share theirs because ultimately we know what belonging, we do know what it is.

Ramia: It’s interesting mentioning the family business again in this context because I do, I do think, and, and this has emerged like over the years of interviewing so many family businesses as well, from all around the world, I think there’s a shadow side and a light side to the belonging conversation. The family enterprise isn’t there. Now I see. Like, you know, you defined from the beginning of this conversation. You defined the family enterprise the way your dad did and the way your family seems to, which in encompasses everybody, encompasses everybody’s, every employee’s, family even. So I think that definition of a family enterprise is. I think it’s the most positive way of doing it, right? like it’s sort of like, even if there might not be financial ownership, there’s definitely psychological ownership and there’s an accountability for everyone. And that will, I, I think no one, everyone can imagine that a space like that will create a sense of belonging very naturally, right? Like so, but I also think that the, the shadow side of it in the family enterprise is when this, the belonging, the sense of belonging only belongs to say the family first of all. And even within that family that it’s being used to force say, next generation members into a mold and to use it almost like a currency. This is the currency you have to pay in order to belong to the legacy. And, and that, that worries me sometimes as well, Kim, right? Like that is being used as a leverage in that sense. I dunno, have you come across this like, you know, how do you, how do you see that?

Kim: That really resonates. I, I see it. I, I actually write about the, you know, the shadow side of belonging is something like belonging, but it’s denying someone else their belonging, and ultimately that person, and it looks like a choice. But I also, uh, there’s other, I think there’s other kind of shadows and other kinds of, where’s the light? As a woman, part of a family business, it was different. You know, for me, I know this is 2026, but for me in my generation, all the others aren’t all here to, to refute or agree. But I, I had a different experience. I didn’t feel any pressure to go into the family business. And that even made me sad.

Ramia: Right, because there was no expectation either.

Kim: I think I was seen as being, bright enough. I feel extra blessed because of this. I did not at the time. I thought, well, there’s no pressure for me to be in business and I just love being part of my family. I love my family. The, family, you know, for me was the business. That was a big added bonus. But I really appreciated my, still do, my family, and even those who aren’t here. And at the same time, I felt by the time I was 25 now, that’s so long ago, I thought, well, I know that I have competencies. I mean, I, I know I have competencies. I’m not sure, uh, what I want to do. And I now, only now can I look back and say, oh, yes, and this, that led to this and this to this. And of course.

Ramia: Yeah. Hindsight 2020. That’s fine.

Kim: But I can look back and say it all, it’s all kind of worked out. But I was really sad because there was no, uh, you know, I felt like I had to, I really had to go prove myself at something else. with my, my brother Mark, I don’t think there was ever an expectation that he would not go into the family business. But I do wanna say, um, ’cause I think some of this is still relevant. When I say my day, oh, it’s still my day, but I, I’d hear this, oh, well, the men go into the business and the girls run the foundation. And that’s doing a real disservice to those who are involved in nonprofit work, which is running a business also just in, in diff slightly different outcomes, right? It’s not about the money you make and at the same time you’re watching investments and your, your, your, uh, your ROI is in some ways even more important. Um, but that is, that, that is giving people choices that look like choices, but they’re not, so I would like to say even in 2026, especially when see, uh, we see it hard when we look at women. And not to say that it’s easy for men in the world, but we see a lot of things swinging  back. So I feel that the best thing going to belonging in, in any family. But now we’re talking about a family. With a family enterprise encourage your boys, your girls, however your children identify to be themselves. I believe in you. You tell, you tell me who you are. I’m still learning who I am, but generally, and you wanna do? And I’ll support you. And I also think that’s the best recipe for keeping family businesses together because whether there are members of the family holding positions, including executive positions and usually board positions, you still want them to be the healthiest in every way. And to be doing whatever they’re doing, showing up in their lives and their families and their communities. And I think that’s also how you attract the best people to your family business, as well, to come in. Because there is, there is something I think about being, working, being part of the family business and kind of knowing the story that’s there instead of having a million shareholders who will trade this today. And the next day is what you said. It’s actually why I took my name off the door with the Samuel Center for Social Connectedness. My dad the inspiration for the, that was in, that was in, that was in his name. The Samuel Center for Social Connectedness, and we still have our programs that we run for those with lived experience as well as, coming to us from scholarly backgrounds and come and and their Samuel fellows we’re keeping that part. But I thought you, you know, I, I was getting, uh, people coming and talking to me where, oh, that’s your family’s thing. That’s your family’s a Samuel Family Foundation, which is our family’s thing. But this, this, I want it to be, you know, my legacy hopefully to contribute that this, what, what is being built is everybody’s thing. It’s your family. It’s your family. And, and so I, uh, and I think my dad would understand, so I took my name off the door. Uh, well, we don’t have a door, but you know, the symbolic door, because this is for everyone. And the only difference for me is I’m passionate about it 24 hours a day. And I still think of my, my family members who are no longer with us, and I would like to make them proud.

Ramia: To give our, to give our listeners and viewers a bit of an outlook on, on what is on the agenda. So like there, there’s been a rebrand, exciting belonging forum. Belonging lab is happening, and the new book is in the making. So. You said to me at the beginning of this conversation, this is what you’re gonna be talking about until your last breath, which hopefully is very far away. But, um, what, what is sort of like, what kind of shapes do you think this is further going to take and like, what does impact look like for you in the years to come? Like, what are you really focused on?

Kim: The focus for me is to have the next five years to have belonging be significant as a factor, not simply an over there thing when the economy’s good. In businesses, in government, in civil society, and to, and to remove silos, and to have kinds of people, whoever wants to be involved should be involved, right? That’s what a movement is, build this movement. And in terms of, maybe just to give two specifics as to as to that one is measurement. I really believe in the importance of, of measurement and as a tool. And we started yeah, two years ago. This we’re just, uh, about, we’ll be announcing the results of the third iteration next month, and we started a, something called the Belonging Barometer. And the Belonging Barometer is, uh, in, started in the UK, which is, I’m, uh, I’m a citizen of two countries, although, my heart is in Canada. But we started this here and hope to take it to other countries and it’s, it’s looking at individuals in a survey by constituency. So, it’s divided by constituencies, all the constituencies in the UK, our partner is a company called Opinum and that they do polling. They, they hadn’t done anything quite like this. So we can get everyone to speak up and there’s questions that they would be asked, around belonging. I want to tell you, I should add before I tell you the other thing that’s happening now is that in the next five years or sooner, I would like people to understand the difference, not a difference in significance between loneliness and social isolation and connection, which can, can be the agency and what happens to a whole group uh, and belonging. And to do my very best to explain belonging and help identify so many others that can explain it in their way.

So anyway, the Belonging Barometer has shown us things like, demographically in terms of who feels the greatest lack of belonging. Which is usually reported still as loneliness. But I can tell you there’s a lot of different things that are going into this. Young women, young women by a lot, eight 18 to 25 in particular. This is not to say that young men aren’t struggling, but for young women it’s much, much higher. I think that’s important to note, and older people and people with disabilities. None of these may come as a surprise, but I think it’s important to look at why and where these answers are coming from, because they’re not coming from, simply, socioeconomic data, you know, privileged people, communities. This is not what this is about. Again, belonging is everyone’s right, showing us that renters feel a lack of belonging much more so than people who own their own home. That’s really significant when we see in so many countries that young people will, you know.

Ramia: Buying a house is never gonna be possible. Exactly. Absolutely. Mm-hmm.

Kim: And then we see compounded with the effects of gentrification and people moving out, out, out and losing community.

Ramia: It’s a real issue. Yes.

Kim: So I think it’s really important to be asking the questions and what does community mean? Um. Community and connectedness are not synonymous unless you work at it every day. Something that we’re just starting and I’ve had in my mind for a long time, which is the charter of belonging. What is a charter of belonging? Well, again, sometimes the straightforward things are the things that are the, uh, they’re not the, they’re not the glitter and the lights in the sky. They’re the things that we can all do every day. I mean, I feel we must, we’ll forget again. So it’s to have, um, a set of principles. 10 would be the most, I think. To look at what principles, what values can be articulated by most, most everyone. And I do it now, wanna do a lot more of it going and meeting with communities on, on this, including through the Belonging Barometer and go and meet with different people who, whoever wants to show up in a constituency and led by the member of Parliament there. But it’s not a, it’s everyone, it’s not, it’s not about political ’cause, it’s belonging should not be political. It is not. And get people’s input and it’s amazing to do that wherever I go. My wish and hope and, uh, my, the doer in me is, uh, to make this really meaningful and useful. So those are two things, the barometer and the charter.

Ramia: We’re very keen in watching you bring all of this to fruition. Kim, thank you so much for joining the podcast today and for sharing your insights. I think this was, uh, to me at least, this felt very hopeful. So thank you very much for joining us.

Kim: Well, thank you. This, this was a joy.