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Interview with Haleema Al Owais, CEO of Sultan bin Ali Al Owais Real Estate
In 2007, a phone call changed Haleema Al Owais’ life in an instant. The young mother of a toddler had just started a new position in her burgeoning television management career when she learned her father, Humaid bin Ali Al Owais, had unexpectedly passed away. Pressing through her shock and grief, Haleema resigned from her job and, along with her brother, Ali, took on her father’s role in the family’s investment business. Their swift actions prevented the firm from being forced to operate without dedicated family leadership.
Haleema not only managed the company’s fledgling property development business but also successfully turned it into a UAE success story, all while simultaneously establishing herself as a prominent entrepreneur in the region. However, Haleema’s journey was far from smooth. Unafraid of breaking convention, she often directly confronted those who questioned her credibility in the male-dominated construction sector. Ultimately, Haleema realised that building self-worth is what truly matters the most.
In this episode, Haleema Al Owais, CEO of Sultan bin Ali Al Owais Real Estate, talks about the challenges she faced while navigating the UAE’s construction sector at just 23 years old. She shares valuable lessons she learned through adversity and the pivotal steps she took after assuming her leadership position — including opening a family construction firm to mitigate the effects of gender discrimination in the industry. She also discusses the significance of family business stewardship as well as the roles hard work and humility play in achieving long-term success, and explains why she firmly believes that prosperity in a family business should not lead to a change in core values.
Key Takeaways:
- The close relationship shared by Haleema and her brother, Ali, enables them to complement each other’s efforts in the family business. They each focus on their individual areas of strength while remaining open to offering and receiving advice. Haleema credits the trust she and her brother have in each other as a key factor in their leadership successes.
- Haleema quickly learned that it is important to ask questions in a family business setting — and acknowledge that she doesn’t always have all the answers. She believes that fostering respectful communication between herself and her team was essential for successfully implementing the technological and operational improvements she introduced within the organisation.
- The challenges Haleema was forced to confront as a young woman in the construction industry’s male-dominated work culture motivated her to take bold actions. Rather than continually fighting biases that hindered productivity, she decided to establish her own companies within the sector to serve the needs of her property development business.
- For most businesses, becoming stagnant quickly leads to critical failure. Custodians of family firms must remain forward-looking and prioritise the growth, innovation, and sustainability that will ensure the continued success of the business for the next generation.
Transcript:
Ramia: Welcome everyone to another episode of Women in Family Business. I am extremely pleased to be joined today by Halima Al Owais, who is the CEO of Sultan Bin Al Owais Real Estate in the UAE, and thank you so much for joining us today in this conversation, Haleema.
Haleema Al Owais: Thank you for having me, Ramia.
Ramia: I always like to start, I guess, like, which for most of us, when we talk around the family business topic is the origin story, right? Like we’ve referred to it previously as the, you know, spider bite or the Batcave, right? Like sort of the origin story of the superhero here that we have in front of us.
We very often refer to this moment that someone decides to join the family business as this deliberate choice, something you get to think about, something you get to decide. But then there are so many cases where the decision is being made for you and where you are very suddenly and under difficult circumstances forced to rise to the occasion. And I believe that was your particular case. And we would love it if you wouldn’t mind sharing with us a little bit more about what that moment was like for you.
Haleema Al Owais: Okay, this was 17 years ago. By then I already started working in Sharjah Television, which became now Sharjah Media Corporation. For two years I was handling the procurement department. My father passed away. My brother and I were attending a conference on his behalf in the UK. And we got the call two hours after we checked into the hotel and had to fly back immediately. So actually us joining the family business was not just joining the family business, we had to take up his role within the family. So it wasn’t just going to the office and let’s take things as they are, we had to become the father, the CEO, the everything, the umbrella. And it was a big role for someone who was 23 and my brother was 24.
And we actually didn’t have a choice. So my brother was still doing his last year of university and I had a 10 month old daughter and I had just started my career in Sharjah Television. So let’s say overnight I had to resign from a job I really liked, I really enjoyed my job. I had to take on… because when my dad went to work, I always thought, oh my God, he’s going to work. This is something big and it’s something I couldn’t even fathom because it’s the stock market, it’s the bank, it’s the real estate, it’s so much. And I always saw my father as this hero who’s able to do all of that. So then just it took us about a year to actually digest what we had to do. And let’s say in the beginning we were a bit ad hoc because we didn’t prepare for that moment.
My father was only 51. We still thought we had years ahead before we had to do that. So I think at that moment, we were just autopilot how to get things done. It was not just the family business. It was our younger siblings. We’re a family of nine. We’re seven now. Two of them passed away. So we were a family of nine. We were the eldest. So we had our mother, who was widowed in her early 40s. And we had siblings ranging from 19 to 4 year old. And doing all of that together, let’s say we were in shock and during that shock we also know that there was this responsibility, we had to step in to do all of that. So obviously it was a few years of shock and also I have this thing in me, things have to go on. Because if you stay there, you fail. So the business had to go on, the kids had to have to go through with this. My mother needs to know that she has somebody as her backbone. So it was quite a traumatizing year, but I did learn a lot.
My father taught me within the right environment how to add value and not, I think in his eyes, not to be a waste of space or a poor investment. So it started off with this. We decided I will handle the real estate part and my brother will handle the companies. So it started off this way.
First thing we did, okay, Haleema, you have to go and finish off a 10-floor building. That’s the building I’m in right now. I was 23. I did not know what I was doing. I worked in the headquarters office for the first year just to know just to understand what’s going on out there because I’ve only been there to visit my father and I didn’t know what was going on there. So I was trained there for about six to nine months and then I had to come back to Sharjah and set up an office in Sharjah. First thing I did, and I’m grateful I have that, I have that. The thing in me that I don’t know, I don’t know everything, it’s okay to ask. So I didn’t want to go in, I’m arrogant, I know all of that just because this belongs to us, I know better. I was grateful I didn’t have that, I would have made a big mess out of it. First thing I did, I called my friend who I worked with and I asked her if her husband can help me.
I knew that her husband… He was a PRO, so he knows his ways around the government entities. I said, I don’t know what I’m doing. He was between jobs. Can you help me? And it started off with this. First thing we did was finish, the building was 70% done. Let’s finish it up. We had a problem with the electricity connection, because we didn’t know how to apply for it. So we got the permit, we put in a generator just to open an office. It was a one-bedroom apartment here. We put in a generator and then we learned. From then it was just learning how to market, how to get the market prices, how to finish up a building, how to speak to contractors, how to make sure the contractors are not… how to make sure the contractors are being honest, how to follow up. So pretty much the first… let’s say three years was trial and error, ad hoc, and just learning. And to me it was the best way to learn because I prefer learning by doing. I cannot learn, especially work in real estate and construction. I cannot learn by attending a class. I have to be doing it. So it was learning how to finish up a building. And then I had another building that I had to finish up. By then I was pregnant with my second daughter.
I cannot stop, obviously. So I remember this. I remember I was very proud of that moment. I was seven months pregnant. We had to go to the top floor. It’s a 69-floor building to check the roof. And the only elevator was the shaft that takes up the equipment, the materials. Thank God I don’t have fear of heights. Thank God for that. And also, I would ask. So what are we looking for, where is the problem? I always ask and I make sure they know, I don’t know all of this so, explain it to me like you would explain it to a layman. I don’t know what this is, I know how to project manage. So being assertive of your role there and also being assertive with yourself, if you don’t know something, it’s okay to ask. Yes, exactly, I will never be an engineer because I didn’t study engineering, but I know how to project manage.
So with that, I learned, with that, after two or three years, I put down the vision. So obviously, I didn’t have a vision when I first started. The vision started, let’s say, five, six years after. So what do we do here? Growth, maintain, sustain. And then after that, when the terminology came up, we’re custodians. To me, this is something we inherited, we take care of and we pass on to the second generation. And how do we do that? Growth, sustain and make sure that it’s there and it’s going to grow for the next generation.
Ramia: You explained that you and your brother agreed that he would take over the companies, you would take over the real estate part.
But you had also never worked together as brother and sister. The two of you were the eldest of the siblings, basically, and so you were suddenly thrust into this huge role of responsibility, which you described. What happened to your relationship with your brother? Like, how did you, the two of you figure out a way to work together successfully?
Haleema Al Owais: My brother and I are very, very close, to the point where we thought we were twins up until we were eight and nine years old. We were very, we’re still very close. So we’re close enough to know each other’s weaknesses, to know each other’s strengths, to know when to support, to know when we fight it’s okay. So working with him was actually the best working relationship I had so far.
There’s a lot of respect, there’s a lot of trust, and there’s so much humbleness. So it’s okay if I couldn’t do something and I tell him, listen, I think I’m making a mess, can you help me out here? And likewise, it’s okay for him. And you know, universally, not just culturally, usually when a brother asks a younger sister for help, it takes a strong sister-brother relationship to be able to do it. Let’s say I was very, very lucky to have that kind of relationship with my brother.
But we also know we could not work together in the same field. So that’s why we decided that each one of us can assist the other, but we had our separate domain. So over the course of the 17 years, if I needed help, he would advise. If he needed help, I would advise.
Ramia: So you’re in this in this situation. So you had like intended a different career, but then you took over.
And your father was not there. And as you said, like he died at such an early age, I don’t think he must’ve had a lot of time to give you any insight into how he actually built this business and why he was so successful, like sort of, it’s like the recipe was probably not entirely revealed yet to you because you were so young.
In terms of like who you could actually even look to as a role model in such a specific particular situation, when it came to leadership, like, you know, how to run a business, who did you look to at the time and who do you look to today in terms of has it changed a lot when it comes to what you admire in leadership and what you are emulating yourself?
Haleema Al Owais: With the family business, my role model is a person I’ve never met and a person I only met when I was young. My grandfather and my uncle, because they’re the first generation. My father’s second generation, we’re the third generation. The way my grandfather started the business, the way my uncle started the business, they’re my role models. My father is the role model, how to be a custodian of the business. So it depends on what field we’re looking at. So with family business I very much have my grandfather and uncles as role models because they stayed simple, they stayed humble and they were very much hands on with the business. One thing I really admire in them and I hope I can pass on to my daughters is family business and wealth and work and all of this doesn’t mean the lifestyle changes. They were still, they still lived very humbly. Just because the wealth increased doesn’t mean their lifestyle changed. Their houses remained humble houses. The cars they drove remained humble. They never changed their friends. Their friends remained the same. Their lifestyle, their values stayed the same. But they were very good at what they did.
And this is what I like about them, they stayed real, they stayed authentic. And the way my father was a custodian, I also admire and I also want him as a role model. And this is why it comes to family business. If it’s in another field, I would have other role models.
Ramia: Like industry specific role models or like more like in terms of like what is the life in general? Okay
Haleema Al Owais: Let’s say life in general. Well, life in general, there’s a few people I look up to. The person I hold very dear to my heart is Her Highness Sheikh Abedur Al Qasimi. She’s definitely a role model. The energy she carries, she’s very much a visionary. She thinks long term. She pays attention to the big picture. And I learn very much from the way she leads.
I have friends around me that I look up to. So let’s say I don’t have one role model. It’s different role models. Yes. And the attributes that I can relate to, let’s say.
Ramia: You’re revealing that, that idea that none of us usually just look up to this one person. It’s usually different people in different areas. And I think that there’s such a, there’s such a wisdom in doing it that way. When it comes to sort of like, you know, you, you talked about, you were not afraid to ask questions in the family business and, and I think that courage must have served you really well, because I think that’s one of the biggest problems that you can create is to put yourself in a situation of seeming all knowing, but actually not understanding what’s going on. So you said you asked questions, et cetera, but then you entered real estate as a 23 year old woman. And I think we can both admit that that must have been difficult. Like, and I think that this is exactly, I was gonna say, let’s just be honest about this because you speak about it so smoothly and you’re very humble about it, but I know that industry, especially back in the region, and that is not easy. So, when it comes to this building one’s credibility in that kind of a role, so you’re so young, you’re a woman.
Haleema Al Owais: I wouldn’t recommend it to the weak-hearted.
Ramia: And you are thrust into it, like people may be accusing you of saying like, well, you know, she just got it handed to her on a platter, basically, even though under sad circumstances, et cetera. Did you consciously think about how to build your authority and credibility? Did you have a strategy over time or were you just like, I’m going to put my head down and I’m just going to try to get the job done as best as I can? Like, so did you have a shift moment as well?
Haleema Al Owais: It evolved over the years. In the beginning, being young and hot tempered, but in the beginning there was a lot of opposition, especially what you said about it was given to her on a platter. And also I had that with me when I was younger. Oh, I’m privileged, I should dwarf myself, I should. But then I said, no I’m not. And in the beginning maybe I was…
I wouldn’t say I was arrogant, but I was too conscious of what they thought of me. I was too conscious. So, and then it became the other way around. I had to prove to myself and if people around me, come to it extended family, come to it the contractors I worked with, come whoever it is, consultant whoever it is, who had this idea of me, it’s not my problem. But it took me a few years to get to that.
Let me prove to them, let me show them, I’ll do X, Y, Z to show them who’s the boss here. So I had early 20s, I had some of those moments. But then later on I said, okay, let me prove my credibility to myself. So knowing the right people, knowing the process, if somebody showed that, it’s their problem. We were working with a, this was the third project I had.
The construction company that we worked with were very apparent that we do not want to meet with a woman, we need to meet with a man because men know better. So by then I got over that hothead and said let me show them. There is no man here. I’m the man that you have to deal with. So take it or leave it. Get over it, I’m the person who we’re going to deal with. So either we’re going to go into penalties because you’re late, either you’re going to meet with me and explain the problem.
So we had external struggle. I’m very lucky it didn’t come from within the family. I’m very lucky with that. So I had those moments and then I told myself, if I keep listening to what’s coming out there and I give it value, I wouldn’t be able to move on. So let’s ignore and hope that over the time they will find Nirvana and try to accept that women can work in the family business and it’s okay to meet with women, it’s okay to negotiate with women.
It won’t affect them. And I wanted to stop depending on my brother being there during the meeting because it’s also a pressure on him, he has other things to do. So eventually I managed to meet with the right people. Also maybe the way I run business made them see things differently, maybe they evolved, maybe they progressed and I said okay we can meet with a woman and we can get worked up. Just maybe back then I’m talking in that fifteen, sixteen years ago, maybe to them that the boys in the family won’t meet them is a sign of disrespect, culturally maybe. But then over the years that changed. And I changed. I stopped taking it personally.
And then eventually after that, after meeting I said, okay, since it’s a man’s world, how about we open our own construction company? And this way, I don’t have to deal with that anymore.
Ramia: You’ve eliminated the problem by doing it yourself. It sounds like a very good strategy to me.
Haleema Al Owais: Yes, and it’s also business growth, isn’t it? Let’s make it A to Z. So we have the construction company that builds our portfolio, and we have the company that runs the leasing of the portfolio, and we have the maintenance company that takes care of it. So this way, if anyone has a problem with working with a woman, let’s eliminate that, and we just focus on the subcontractors.
Ramia: So just for the listeners to understand, when you discriminate against women, what’s gonna happen eventually is you’re gonna lose their business and they’re gonna build their own. So that’s the result, lesson learned. I love this. Warning. We’re just gonna do it ourselves.
Haleema Al Owais: Yes, warning. Warning. We’re not going to fight with you. We’re going to compete with you. And then, let’s see. So work with women, please, so we don’t compete with you.
Rami: I love that lesson. It leads to vertical integration. Um, it also made sense, I guess, for your family business to do. So you have that you were established, you have that clout.
So it’s a fast moving country, region, and fast moving industry. Right? Like, so to keep up with that is, I find it like mind boggling, right? Like, especially because you have to deal with so many layers of technology, especially then in construction, et cetera, real estate overall as well. Um, and it’s a very, um, volatile industry, very responsive to, to global effects and the global markets.
How do you enable agile decision-making in the company, because it’s of course, it’s never just enough for you to be that person, but that culture needs to permeate every facet of the organization, right? So that you can stay on top, you can respond to these market trends. So how do you as a family manage this? Like that you enable a culture that can keep up with all of these changes that are happening at so many different levels?
Haleema Al Owais: I mean you mentioned it’s a fast growing country but also people’s mind change also and develop at the same pace. So one thing I had to make sure that we’re not stagnant because we were stagnant for a few years in the beginning. There was a lot of stagnancy there. So what we did is in the beginning I had a struggle with forming a company and reverting from old school to proper admin, just proper admin, and to them that was a big leap because you have old school people there who have been working there for way before I was born. So after that struggle and because it’s people also I love, I grew up in front of their eyes and I have so much respect for them and those who are still with us, most of them passed away because they’ve been there for years, I had to explain to them and with explaining to them how we had to do that because we had to catch up. It took a few years, but then when they saw how easier it was, how the processes were easier, if there’s simplicity, there’s a filing system. Things are entered into a database. We have computers, so we don’t have to bother you every time because I’m in Sharjah. They’re in Dubai. We have an office in Ajman. Just to have a system will make things easier for you. And you don’t have to know how to use a computer. You have a secretary who will print out everything and bring it to you.
So that was the first shift and it was a struggle. Because they thought we were the kids who were going to come in and make a mess and bring in these gadgets. And we had a lot of respect for them, but we can see if we stayed on to what their era thought of, we would fall behind. So after doing that shift, and that took maybe a year and a half to at most until everyone caught up, after that we kept evolving. And I won’t say it was a fast evolvement because also the real estate industry, especially the way we work, we don’t need to keep that fast pace because we’re not hotels, we’re not retail, we’re not hospitality. We develop residential and commercial units.
So to keep up with innovation, we just kept up with what the market demands are. Demands with residential, with families because we focus mostly on families, what families require. And then when it comes to construction, the new materials, the new, let’s say, the ones that are more sustainable, the ones that are better for the environment, the one that makes sure that the assets last longer. So there is, we had to keep up with the market because of that. And also if you explain to the team why we’re doing it, they become more enthusiastic. Because I’m very lucky, we have a very smart team.
And eventually after seeing how changing and developing made things better, they became even faster than I am with staying updated. And also everyone’s involved. It’s not a hierarchy where they’re waiting for everything to be top down. We’re pretty much involved so that everyone gets to give in their intake and their feedback.
Ramia: So to have more of that team approach, it’s such a big transition in, in the culture of the company. Do you see this happening around you as well? Like, do you feel like this is actually catching on now in family businesses around you? Or do you feel like family businesses in particular might be struggling with making exactly this adjustment?
Haleema Al Owais: I think this is when the second spider bite came. Three years ago, I was diagnosed with trigeminal neuralgia. I don’t know if you’re familiar with that disease. I had nerve flare-up in my face that I needed really strong medication to block the nerve pain. And this was caused purely by stress, because everyone reverted. And I’m not talking about just the decisions in real estate, decisions everywhere. And then I felt, okay, I can do it. I will be the superhero. And then other things, even helping out with things that are personal within the family. And then, and I was also opening my own business. I had, I opened a restaurant a few, three or four years ago. So all of that put together. I, my body acted up by by the disease I got. After being diagnosed, after being on the medication that I also had side effects which made me put on a lot of weight and unable to exercise,
I made a decision, I will de-stress by making sure everyone can make their own decisions. So I started first with the restaurant. Listen guys, I don’t know F&B, I don’t know hospitality. So I hired you for you to run it for me. So stop running to me over, this supplier is giving us milk for a lower price than this supplier. You make the decisions. You give me the report end of the month. I don’t want to see any phone calls. Otherwise, you’ll have to be replaced, because I hired the wrong person. And then it comes to the office, the people who I hired early on. I had a meeting. I told them, listen, I’m not an engineer. I’m not the general manager. I’m not the head of maintenance. This is your job. You come to me only if something that the owner had to make a decision on. Otherwise, I hired the wrong person. Then I went to my daughters and I said, I’m your mom. I’m your mom and your dad because I’m divorced from their father. I’m your mom and your dad, but you are teenagers. You’re able to do decisions on your own. You can come to me at any time. But you are strong. You know the right decision. Just come to me when you need me.
Same thing with my family members. And then this way, the stress went down. They got empowered. So what also warms my heart, they got empowered. Oh, they believe in themselves. And I took the responsibility on me. I think I enabled all of that to happen by taking on too much. And then I decided that there is a yes after every two nos. So stop saying yes, because I don’t want it to start flaring up in my heart.
Ramia: It’s so interesting how many women share this phenomenon as well, that it almost takes like a physical shutdown for a woman to stand still and say like, okay, hold on. Maybe being a superhero means creating other superheroes and not just carrying the fate of the world on our shoulders, right? Like all alone. And I think that’s, that team approach, I think is so much more sustainable for everybody. It’s very, very interesting to see how that has worked for you.
You mentioned the restaurant and I did want to talk about that because I think what’s so interesting, right? Like, is that, you know, you got to after, after so many years of them being in the family business and dedicating your life to that, et cetera, you then also got to have your own entrepreneurial endeavor from the ground up. Were you very different as a leader in something that you got to create from scratch or do you think like, you know, you just carried over, you were like, actually at the point where you’re like, no, actually now I know exactly what I’m doing in the family business. I’m going to use all of that prowess in the entrepreneurial field. Do you see differences between your styles?
Haleema Al Owais: Well, you know, with the family business, it was kind of presented to me, and then I restructured it and went on. I think what I wanted is, I wanted a little hobby. I wanted something that’s fun. And also, it wasn’t a very smooth journey. But from then, I realized that it was something I had to get out of my system. I have always been a big fan of cafes. And I said, why not create one of my own, create a brand. I always liked cafes that brought the community together, hence the name of the cafe. It’s called Community Cafe. I always had this dream that it’s going to be a cafe on the beach. It’s actually a cafe on the beach. It’s on Al-Mamzar beach. It’s exactly what it is. It’s a community cafe. There are bookshelves that people donate their books. People can come and borrow books.
They don’t have to bring back the books, but they can bring in other books that they’re ready to donate. And it’s pretty much that. It’s a community place where people around that area can just find a third place to be in. Aside from work and home, this is their third place. And it was something I needed to get out of my system. I thought maybe let’s branch out and create this big thing out of it.
But I opened a second branch in Sharjah, but with COVID, obviously, things were not very sustainable and I had to close it down. But let’s say having that place got this entrepreneurial thing out of my system. Is it the last project I’m going to open? No, I don’t think so. But let’s see. But it has to be something that sparks an interest in me.
Ramia: Tell me about like how you are talking to your daughters about the business. There’s this, uh, awareness of stewardship and custodianship that you mentioned before, right? Like, so you’re here to enable the next generation, et cetera. Are you telling them about the business, are you talking to them? Are you, and so what’s the response you’re getting? Like, are they seeing, or do they understand what it is that you’re doing by now? Like, are they getting interested?
Haleema Al Owais: My eldest trained with me two summers when she wanted extra allowance. She knows what I’m doing here. I took her on site visits with me. I told her one day you’re going to be working here. Okay, maybe part-time. You can have a career by all means, but you will be a board member, you will be a part of it one day. So I want you to realize the legend that we’re being custodians to.
They know all the stories about my grandfather, about my uncle, about my father, how they started everything. They even know that before the boom and oil, that her grandparents’ business was in the pearl industry. So they know their roots and they know, they even know, they’ve seen pictures of how they lived. They know the history and they’re very proud of the history.
So they do know how things are run. The way I raise them also, to be custodians. So from an early age, they know how to manage their money. From an early age, they know how to be proud of their roots. They’re still pretty young. Noor is 17 and Maharaj is 15. But we talk to them all the time about how work is done. I bring a lot of work home. And they see me because I have my office in the living room.
They see the work I’ve done, they listen to the business calls I make. So they’re pretty much very familiar about it. I don’t know if one or both of them might join one day, but I’m hoping they are a part of it, and they’re very aware of it, and they’re very proud. But I want them to have a built-in stewardship in them when it refers to private business.
Ramia: Is this like also again, because the whole future of the, of the region is so reliant on the private sector and particularly on family enterprises and these family enterprises doing what you’re doing, which is to tell the next generation the truth about what it is like, that there’s a responsibility, whether you work in it or not, that there’s an ownership responsibility that comes with it eventually. Do you feel like as family businesses, we are doing enough in that regard at the moment? When you look around you, what do you see? Are you concerned? Are you optimistic about family generations transmitting that spirit of innovation and drive that they’ve had for generations to the next generation?
Haleema Al Owais: I do have my worries early on, but now when I see the generations after us, there are some that are disappointing and there are some that actually surprise me with how they are. Their mindset is pretty much very stable when it comes to being custodians. What I’m hoping for more is that there’s more collaboration between the private and the public sector so they can have more insight.
A little over a year ago I became a board member in the Sharjah Chamber of Commerce and board member in Invest Bank and that made me see from both sides how things are done. So if there was more collaboration, I can see that it’s going to come up in the future. I think this will make sure that they can work in parallel together rather than separately because also as a private sector you will see the demand more clearly from the public sector.
And based on those demands, the private sector will grow. So this is my only concern and a direction I will hope that is put in strategy soon.
Ramia: Haleema, thank you very much for talking to us today. We learned a lot from you.